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This is Sparta version 3 
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Post This is Sparta version 3
Here is version 3, comments appreciated.

Added in some extra details and options.

I should add we make a range of Greeks and Spartans, link here http://scarabminiatures.com/index.php?m ... Path=23_68

:mrgreen:


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Rob
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Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:56 pm
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:22 am
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
Hello,

i´ve taken a first read through the Spartan list and it seems a bit odd that Spartans themselves are not much better than Mercenary Hoplites (Mo8 instead of 7) but cost 5 pts. more. Is this correct? Personally i´d liked to see them a bit more special, like KA4 or something like this.

Another thing: I looked also on several other lists, and it seems that point costs for equipment are pretty low at all. From my WAB experiance players simply take all reasonable options available in this case, as its always worth spending a point to increase armour or get spears.


Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:28 am
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
Goltron- welcome

As the Morale value increases, it becomes much more powerful in the game, especially when combined with drilled (which enables you to reroll failed Command tests), and thats where the extra points come in. On the table, we then get less Spartans, (as historically we would expect to see, their citizen numbers declined over time) but those we have are amoung the best in the Ancient World at fighting. However, because there are a few less of them, they can be outflanked by a crafty foe :mrgreen:

Some armour costs more (usually where it was either rare, unlikely or 'we are not sure'), where it doesn't cost more (and this also applies to weapons) it just means historically both types of troops may have been on the battlefield or available. I have attempted to keep the points system very flat and universal so even though most historically mismatched opponents could fight (eg Sumerians and Vikings). The real character can be stored in the Legends of War sections

Over time, I do expect to further revise lists and point costs, much depends on feedback, theres only one of me, and plenty of games to play and army lists!

Hope that helps.

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http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:52 pm
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
Still 21 vs 16 points seem to be a bit odd, as you can improve Mo also with a attached character.

@ Armour:

Actually i think i´d always take every armour available in the lists ive then - and that should not be the case. I think armour should be costed something like this:

1: 1pt
1->2: 2 pts
2->3: 3 pts
3->4 4 pts

Maybe more for expensive models (usually cavalry). Especally an armour of 5 should be very expensive (i´d say 8-10 pts for a full knight around 40 pts before the upgrade.)

(In WAB equipment points were best calculated in old AoC...AoA2 is a big step backwards in this detail.)

Hope that helps a bit :).


Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:06 am
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
You can add a character, but Personalities can die quite easily if you are unlucky :mrgreen: , and you need the more expensive ones with Strategy Intervention Points in a Spartan army as the Points are not pooled automatically.

(Likewise for the Greek army)

And there is another way of looking at less points on armour- more models on the table.

So far, in games played, Sparta vs Greek City States are about level on results. Against Persians, its also been pretty even so far.

I assume you are also referring to some of the other lists regarding points values on armour, and for some, I agree they might need an increase and as I revise lists I will look at those details.

Wheere possible we are attempting to avoid Armour Value 5 (so save on a 2+) for infantry, and if that is the case there either needs to be other penalties in place, or extra points.

Hope that helps, and as you spot other details, please ask or question. Thank you

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Rob
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:39 am
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
Quote:
And there is another way of looking at less points on armour- more models on the table.


Example:

10 pts guy with AS1 and option for light armour (+1 pt) and large shield (+1 pt):

So i have 24 guys with AS1 for the same cost as 20 guys with AS3. The later ones fall at half strengt after 10 casulties, with AS3 you save hald of all hits so usually the enemie need 40 hits/20 wounds to bring the unit at half strengt. If the AS1 unit takes 40 hits/20 wounds you´ll loose about 16-17 models - so you have less left than the AS3 unit, and that only with AS1. In addition, with AS3 you get less wound in combat and are more likely to win.

A bit theoretical now but i hope you get my point ;). Armour becomes better and better when you have more of it, and if the model wearing it is more expensive.

Quote:
Wheere possible we are attempting to avoid Armour Value 5 (so save on a 2+) for infantry, and if that is the case there either needs to be other penalties in place, or extra points.


Imho that should be even avoided for mounted troops. I´m a bit afraid about knights with plate armour, shield and barding or something like this...

Quote:
So far, in games played, Sparta vs Greek City States are about level on results. Against Persians, its also been pretty even so far.


I´m still thinking that +1 Mo ist not worth +5 pts. Especially as more models (with the same AS ;)) mean you can take more casualties before you loose your 3rd dice for Mo tests :).


Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:51 am
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
The morale is not 5 points, its 3 points, its the bonus of drilled with the mo 8 that makes the spartans really good (and expensive)
With a reroll on a command check, they can do a lot of useful stuff, especially if charged in flank or rear as they take a command test so if its failed they can reroll it.

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Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:55 pm
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
I´m refering to the Mercenary Hoplites, which are also drilled. Maybe thats a fault? 3 Pts. seem to be reasonable.


Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:05 pm
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
Another thing sprang to my mind this morning: I remember reading somewhere that the Spartans where usually the first to increase spear length in Greece - maybe that can be portrayed in the Legens of War section by allowing them long thrusting spears?


Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:36 am
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:39 pm
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Post Re: This is Sparta version 3
I am observing this engagement with great interest. I will advance when I have worked out which side is going to win, though my money is on Goltron at the moment. :D


Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:43 pm
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