It is currently Mon May 21, 2018 7:14 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Army list revisions 
Author Message
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:02 pm
Posts: 3435
Post Army list revisions
I am currently updating the army lists and making some ammendments. This does not include the list books (Chariot and Classical) created by Olaf and his friends, this will be a separate project.

If you have any comments on the lists, please provide comment either on this topic, or via separate email so I can give the proposals due consideration.

Elephant users should note the following, Armour values are being significantly reduced (to AV 1), and for Indian elephants the Killing Ability is being reduced to 4. The points are also being amended although by not much. I hope this will then balance the points cost and effectiveness. Play testing will see.

Thank you

_________________
Kind regards
Rob
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:09 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:08 am
Posts: 5
Post Re: Army list revisions
On the Crusaders list, one of the possible allies for the Later Crusades is the Byzantines. Currently, the two Byzantine lists (Nikephorian and Thematic) are from before the Crusades. I suggest that a Komnenian list is needed (1081-1204 AD), and the Crusader list should specify that Komnenian Byzantines may be taken as allies.

Just my 2 cents :)


Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:30 pm
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:02 pm
Posts: 3435
Post Re: Army list revisions
Thanks for that, currently amending the elephant lists, :mrgreen:

_________________
Kind regards
Rob
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:39 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 99
Post Re: Army list revisions
I´ve battled a Fatimid Army with Normans (not historical accurate, i know...) on thuesday. Was a fun game and the lists worked pretty well so far. As i noticed somewhere else allready (;)) armour options are to cheap - for example 9 pts for a Guard Spearmen with AS1 is okay, but only 3 pts more for AS4 makes them pretty hard.

Another thing is barding - for 2 pts the Guard Mamluks get AS5 (instead of 4) which makes them far better. In general, i think AS5 is pretty game breaking in a game where most troops have no armour penetration as you get only half casualties compared to AS4. Personally i think its best to avoid AS5 where possible and give mounted troops with barding D8 (with AS4) instead. Apart from that AS5 should be very exepensive. In WAB full barding was 6 pts in the late medieval period and you´ve got several movement penalties if you took it (M6, close order, only 2D6 flee & pursue). Still we always took barding if available as the 2+ AS is so good.

For the Normans, i think the mounted Milites might be a bit weak on the charge, while they get better afterwards. I still think KA4 would be appropiate for mounted troops of the "knightly" type, maybe only on the charge (due to their "warhorses").


Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:19 am
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:02 pm
Posts: 3435
Post Re: Army list revisions
Thanks Goltron

Generally John (old g*t) and myself agree with your comments on armour/durabilty, and in the lists I have upgraded so far I have increased armour points cost where it is an option. Where troops would have it as a standard, it remains the same cost.

With the knight charge, so long as they don't consistantly lose on the round they charge, its OK, but again, as I made note of in the rule book, some cavalry may need a little boost (shock charge etc), the important thing was not to give a default bonus to all cavalry to get ahistorical results.

A War & Conquest charge and opening round of combat should not automatically rout the enemy, we want the combat to last for a couple of rounds, representing the initial impact/shock of the charge and then the units intermingling/penetrating before one side routs.

Will try and review mamluks next week, or week after 19th, once the gaming day is done

_________________
Kind regards
Rob
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:42 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 99
Post Re: Army list revisions
Quote:
A War & Conquest charge and opening round of combat should not automatically rout the enemy, we want the combat to last for a couple of rounds, representing the initial impact/shock of the charge and then the units intermingling/penetrating before one side routs.


I agree with that, but i think (mounted) knights should still be most dangerous on the charge. In the high medieval perdiod they have lances and Shock Charge 2 which is far better than their Norman ancestors are, so this KA4 is maybe not necessary. If the Normans Milites prove to be a bit to weak in the charge this might be also resolved by giving them Shock Charge 2.

Actually i remember another thing i wanted to post: Early Greeks have an option for heavy armour which is imho pretty colourful, but you have again the problem with AS5 troops. Actually i like the idea to restrict AS in general to AS4 and give all troops with a better one D8 instead of AS5 (or even 6). Probably troops taking the heavy armour should it only count it if attacked in the front and not in the flank or rear, representing that the rear ranks are unarmoured. I think also that this "Superior Armour" upgrade available to some Greeks is to good, and has only doubtfull historical basis.

(Don´t get me wrong, i like the greeks pretty much but have not played with them yet. The Phalanx rule is refreshing easy!)


Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:03 pm
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:02 pm
Posts: 3435
Post Re: Army list revisions
Actually superior armour should really be 'better disciplined or trained' formation and I intend to rename it :mrgreen: It only lasts while the formation is over half strength, thats quite important as well. The same applies to heavy armour, once at half strength or less the bonus is lost.

As you have identified, the profile, although short and simple is very flexible depending on what we wish to achieve.

I can see merit in reducing a Cavalry armour save, but increasing the durabilty for some troop types. It does however, require some statistical anaylsis and in my case, a simple matter of putting a couple of units on the table, and rolling dice as well :mrgreen:

_________________
Kind regards
Rob
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:38 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 99
Post Re: Army list revisions
Quote:
Actually superior armour should really be 'better disciplined or trained' formation and I intend to rename it :mrgreen: It only lasts while the formation is over half strength, thats quite important as well. The same applies to heavy armour, once at half strength or less the bonus is lost.


Hm, isn´t CA4 of the Mercenary Hoplites enough for this? (and then, why don´t have all Spartans this upgrade? ;)). re-roll armour saves is a very though thing if you take in mind that Hoplites have AS4 (or 5 with heavy armour) to the front. With AS4 and a re roll you need an average 9 hits to penetrate armour a single time, and then you have still roll to wound. With heavy armour (AS5) you´ll need an average 144 (!) attacks (with CA & KA3) to cause a single casulaty to the unit with superior armour! I think they should stay quite long over half strength :D.

Quote:
I can see merit in reducing a Cavalry armour save, but increasing the durabilty for some troop types. It does however, require some statistical anaylsis and in my case, a simple matter of putting a couple of units on the table, and rolling dice as well


Rolling dice is always good :). Something for the statistics:

With CA3 and no armour penetration:

AS5, D7: 12 hits = 1 casualty
AS4, D8: 9 hits = 1 casualty.

With KA4 and AP2 (most troops with double handed weapons):

AS5, D7: 3 Hits = 1 casualty.
AS4, D8: 3 Hits = 1 casualty.


Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:19 am
Profile
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:02 pm
Posts: 3435
Post Re: Army list revisions
Goltron wrote:
Quote:

Rolling dice is always good :). Something for the statistics:

With CA3 and no armour penetration:

AS4, D8: 9 hits = 1 casualty.



Last night a unit of chariots being shot at by javelinmen defied those odds nicely, 2 casualties from 7 shots. :mrgreen:

(And their own shooting at the javelinmen had failed miserably, any surviors are no doubt are going back to the training ground :lol: )

As for the Greek armour, a couple of those rules still need playing out and testing (as it says in the list) I don't take mercenaries and I dropped the Spartan veterans and added an Allied hoplite formation so I could field a larger force which paid dividends last night, I could cover my flanks and also use some hill tribes to threaten the enemy flank (I was facing a warband army).

_________________
Kind regards
Rob
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
www.warandconquest.co.uk


Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:32 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:22 am
Posts: 99
Post Re: Army list revisions
Quote:
Last night a unit of chariots being shot at by javelinmen defied those odds nicely, 2 casualties from 7 shots.


Yeah, but don´t forgett the occasions when you need a single casualty with 20 shots and get none :mrgreen: .

Quote:
As for the Greek armour, a couple of those rules still need playing out and testing


Of course, i wanted only to give my opinions :).


Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:13 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.